June 27, 2006
Are Flipping Houses and Character Preservation Mutually Exclusive?
My first misconception about flipping houses was that the demolition stage would be easy and potentially fun. I mean, how often do you get to run willy-nilly through a house swinging a sledgehammer and knocking down walls? Could be kinda fun, right? WRONG! Contrary to my whimsical vision of this stage of the flip, the interior demolition has been an extremely arduous process. Every time you go to rip something out, you have to ask yourself: is there any wiring behind this? will this release a bunch of lead paint particles into the air? do I actually need to rip this out? how can a remove this without destroying that? can I preserve the 1928 ________ attached to what I’m ripping out?
This last question brings me to the focus of this post, which is the debate between a quick (character-less) flip and a slower, detail-oriented restoration of the property. 
I began to struggle with this issue when I was prepping the bedrooms for new drywall and went to remove the baseboard molding, which is secured to the wall with an outrageous number of 5-inch nails driven deep into pretty much every stud. Although none of the original moldings and trim survived prior “renovations” on the first floor, most of the original woodwork around the doors, floors and windows is still intact upstairs. This was one of the features that originally attracted me to this house because I thought that these rooms would look amazing once they were restored.
However, now that I’m actually in the thick of the demolition process and trying to get the woodwork off the walls without destroying it, I’m seriously reconsidering the wisdom of an attempt to preserve these details. It took me and my dad (in town for a weekend visit) more than fifteen minutes to remove a single (small) piece of baseboard molding from one of the bedrooms without damaging the wood. The doors and windows will be even more challenging because of their position (very close to the interior walls) and the amount of wood around each. Adding to the problem, I would need to carefully label and store each piece of trim so I know how to put everything back together after the new drywall is up. Each piece would also probably require stripping/sanding and new paint since the existing paint is flaking off. All told, the preservation of this wood would take a huge amount of effort when compared to simply ripping it off and slapping up new trim. I don’t yet have a sense of what it would cost to put up new (mid-range quality) trim, but I’m guessing it would still be less than the opportunity cost of the time it would take me to preserve the original wood.
It’s at times like these that I wish Fliperati were a little older and had a larger base of readers. If it were, I’m sure this post would ignite a vigorous debate between die-hard preservationists and passionate, $$-minded house flippers. Besides providing entertainment (similar debates on heavily-trafficked blogs always seem to degenerate into a cyclone of wild insults), I usually find such commentary exposes pros and cons on each side that I had not previously considered.
I suppose I’ll just have to be content playing devil’s advocate with myself until more people discover my blog and generate some raucous commentary.
Please, please preserve the mouldings. My husband and I recently bought a house in Jersey City that had been ‘flipped’. We bought it because we love the space and the light and because we think we can do something with it, but defintitely NOT because we liked what the previous owner had done with the house (which, by the way, was to rip everything out and then sheetrock - poorly - over everything and put in cheap vinyl tile and synthetic carpet.) It sort of looks ok, kind of, but we have no idea how many botched jobs are waiting for us underneath. If you have the opportunity to actually make a good job of this house - do it. Especially now that it is becoming more of a buyers’ market, take the time to do it right. Personally I don’t understand half the wierd ugly things that seem to sell houses (the $$-minded house flippers side of the debate) except that maybe a lot of people have no taste, but even if you are in this for the money, surely you want to take a little pride in what you are doing? In the end, a house with some history and some craftmanship, surely is going to be more valuable than some white bocx with a bit of exposed brick, probably somewhere inappropriat, thrown in for good measure/
I agree. If the mouldings were part of what drew you to the house, it stands to reason that they would also draw potential buyers. Historical and preservation considerations aside, and I am a firm preservationist, you need that little something to separate you from the pack. People will pay a premium for detail, preserved in situ, lovingly restored. Any old 4 walls with sheet rock house is, well, any old 4 walls with sheetrock house. If you watch any of the programs on HGTV or the like, the first thing they do in a plain boring room is put up crown moulding. You’ve got great stuff there. Please don’t trash it.
First time seeing this site, and my question would be why are you ripping out walls and putting up sheetrock in the first place? I’m assuming you’ve got plaster now, which is so much better than sheetrock in terms of historic preservation–and has excellent sound reduction qualities and insulating value. Slapping historic moldings on a sheetrock wall isn’t worth it, imo. You can always repair plaster–I just spent six months repairing my cracked walls. Plus, if you don’t want to repair the plaster so you can paint it, you can always cover it with wallpaper.
Not pointing any fingers here, but I find that most people get carried away with demo. Especially those who have the least skill at actually putting anything back together again. Too many original plaster walls end up in dumpters, when they could have easily been repaired. Save the plaster where you can, and you won’t have to remove any moldings. Strip, sand and re-paint in situ.
There’s a couple restoring a brownstone on my block, and they blew a lot of their budget by committing zillions of man hours to removing every door, and every stick of molding and trim throughout the house and tediously stripping and staining all of it. Very nice woodwork, but most of it was pine and poplar — neither of which take stain very well. Lots of $$$ later, and they have a lot of uneven, blotchy woodwork that to my eye is pretty dark and unappealing. And they didn’t bother to label or number anything. They just assume they’ll figure out where to put it all back. I wish them luck.
Renovating an 1880s frame in Brooklyn. Some thoughts & observations:
* there were sliding pocket doors at one time- removed and we would love to find a pair…2nd choice is to look at salvage places to see what they have…maybe we could settle for salvaged french doors and then retrofit them in.
* marble mantle pieces with paint on paint
* mantle pieces with the ornate fireplace and side columns covered over to give it that ’squared and flat’ look
mantle piece column finials SHAVED off so the new flat surface allows for the finished ’squared and flat’ look!!!
* average of 6 layers of linoleum on every floor, sometimes also covered with padding and carpet.
* plaster walls with plaster ornamental details: we are doing everything we can to preserve the plaster (I mix a little plaster of paris into the joint compound). As master plasters will tell you: plaster has been around for hundreds of years. Sheetrock has not. We are gingerly digging/chipping/scraping out loose areas with the constant them of patch the whole-save the wall or ceiling. So far so good.
* Crystal and porcelein door knobs smothered in paint on paint
* old fashioned light switches - save em if they work
* old door hardware (hinges, key hole covers, etc. All are paint on paint, except for the ones that someone removed when they put in new locking door knobs!!
* doors with the panels that are covered over with a thin board…not sure if it is worth the trouble to try to restore these doors…
* slightly sloping floors - part of the charm…but I will go to Home Depot and buy lolly columns and give the main beam in the cellar some reinforcements.
I am going to paint remove some things and rather than continue using the paint remover goo we bought am seriously considering using a new product on the market that uses infrared light/heat…
All in all - lots of work and sweat. But what a sense of accomplishment, pride that we are not gutting for the sake of gutting. We are preserving and restoring and renovating with what I hope is smart “cents”…
D
Here’s my trick for fixing cracked plaster. Of course, gouge out the cracks so you have something to fill, then paint them with this product called Plaster Weld, which will become slightly tacky when dry and facilitate the adherence of new joint compound. I never use plaster for the repairs, just lightweight joint compound thinned out with a little water. Works great.
It completely depends on your goal. It seems like a great idea to save everything, and that’s always where my hear is, but if the end goal is to flip the house, then you need to make decisions firmly keeping that in mind. If there are some gems that will really set the place off if you lovingly (at an extreme consumption of time) want to restore, then do that to keep some of the charm. Perhaps you could keep some of the plaster walls intact as has been repeatedly mentioned in these comments. To keep, however, every single old molding, door or light switch (that I actually don’t agree with) in the house is not going to jibe with your goal of doing a few houses a year. You’re talking about one house a year if you preserve everything without an eye on the time and money. But then again, if you do decide to preserve every detail, you certainly shouldn’t worry about the “owner occupied” financing as you will definitely be there day and night…working.
Agreed that everything isn’t worth saving, especially if a house is being readied for re-sale. But “preservation” can really save time and money. Anyone who has ever beaten and pried all the plaster and lath off the wall and carted it all out of the house knows that it would have been a whole lot easier to save the plaster if it could be saved. I see a lot of people demo-ing because they think they’re supposed to, not because its really needed.
I agree about the plaster. I was thinking more of stripping and refinishing every stick of wood trim in a house. I’ve seen many people give up and leave it mostly stripped for a “shabby chic” look. It’s a real chore to get the trim stripped down. However, wisely choosing some details that will really set the house off and better position the property for market is always a good idea in my opinion. Actually if one can efficiently strip all of the wood trim, it’s best, but the time/value v. goal equation must be kept in mind. Not all homes are showpieces.
please preserve as much as possible! anyone can have a flipper home depot property…. you’ll add value if you keep/add the old good stuff.
Also details are important…. we’re currently spending $$$ to change the UGLY bright brass home depot lever doorknobs in our 1905 Victorian to a combo of ebay salvage + repro doorknobs. Most of our new hardware comes from Rejuvenation… I bet we’re putting the owner’s kids through college with the amount of money we are spending!
Resale value is higher with original antique moldings. If the paint on the face is not badly damaged, and the molding is ornate, do not attempt to remove it. Consider sanding and painting the molding white, with contrasting darker neutral walls vs refinishing. This works great, and is a highly desirable look especially for buyers in todays market. Make sure to use a high quality sander such as Bosch or Makita. Start with sand paper from 80 grit and go up to 150 grit.
Repair lath and plaster walls, wall paper, but, do not drywall unless you absolutely have to.
To prevent damage, pull finish nails through the wood with channel locks, or vice grips, vs pounding back out of the wood. This will keep the molding from becoming damaged from the nail heads. Do not use crow bars to initially loosen molding. Instead use a small rigid putty/scraping knife to loosen, starting at the bottom or side and working all the way to the opposite end. Always use protective wood against the walls to protect from damage from pry bars. If you score the seam where the molding meets the wall, you will eliminate a great deal of damage to the paint on the wall, and the paint on the molding. making it easier to sand/restore.
Another alternative is to take the molding to an antique furniture re-finisher rather than stripping it yourself. They have down draft booths where they can spray the paint stripper on the wood, and have very fast ways of removing the paint.